(no subject)

[nolly]

Bought my first tank of ethanol tonight -- it's ~20 cents less than the cheap gasoline here. I don't know how long it's been cheaper, but I wish I'd gotten around to doing the research to find the local station sooner. Yes, "the" -- as far as I can tell, there's only one: the Regional Transportation Center. In fact, accoding the the E85 website I looked at, this is the only ethanol station in all of California. Luckily, it's not much out of my way.

I know there's been some controversy in the news lately about ethanol, but I suspect it's at least not worse than gasoline, and my truck can run on ethanol, gas, or any mix of the two.

Comments

[bovil.livejournal.com]

The big controversy over ethanol is that it uses more energy to make than you get out of it.

Well, when it's made from corn.

Which is what the government is subsidizing the manufacture of ethanol from.

Sugar beets, on the other hand, are an amazingly efficient source of ethanol; you spend a bit of energy making it, but you get more out in the end (no, this isn't anything like a perpetual motion machine).

But they're making it from corn.

So the petroleum lobby can complain about how ethanol is wasteful, and how directly burning fossil fuel is so much more efficient.

First they take our nice cane sugar and beet sugar and replace it with high fructose corn syrup. Now they decide that corn is supposed to fuel our cars, even if it's not good at it.

Idiots.

[nolly.livejournal.com]

Seems to depend on who you ask -- see this article (http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050803/news_lz1c03fuel.html), summary in the sidebar.

Anyway, I don't think ethanol is the solution to the world's fuel problems or anything, but 20 cents a gallon is around $3 per fill up for me, and about $15/month. Not huge, maybe, but enough that I'm willing to use it for now.

(I am trying to avoid HFCS these days, though I don't always remember to check the ingredient list. Working on that.)

coulda woulda shoulda

[koyote.livejournal.com]

okay, *one* way to produce ethanol using corn uses more ergs of energy than you'd get out of burning a gallon of gas.

so? What, they expect a 110% efficient machine? Come on!

using natural gas to produce high nitrogen fertilizer is one of the better uses for natural gas, given that we simply don't have a "natural gas transportation economy". okay, sure, we *could*, and maybe we *should*- but we *don't*. and that means the stuff gets burned off as waste or used to make fertilizer much mroe than direct fueling cars. *shrug*

Cultivation costs for growing the corn- using tractors. - Gah! I don't even know where to begin! It's a *system*, that gallon of deisel (not gasoline) that gets burned in the John Deere over thar is doing a bit more than simply producing gasohol. Its also seen as the most efficient means of providing a living for some farm dudes out there who... like it or not... are human and have to find some self-fulfilling method of staying alive. (yeah, the systems argument goes all the way to the oil field workers. I'm not arguing that I want them to stay doing oil field work, but you have to look at the systems effect as they ARE before you can nudge ever changing factors intelligently)

Corn, beet, cane, or even *weed* ethanol can be made more "energy efficient" in terms of "strict gallons of gasoline" usage. I put quotes because it's not that simplistic, but whatever. But you can't get there from here unless you start getting there! Systems aren't static. Stuff isn't just "is or is not". Stuff becomes, happens, progresses. And sometimes to get from point a to point b, you have to travel a technological road that gives you some changing effects and costs.

(for that matter, there isn't and has never been *A* solution to world energy. If people would stop looking at solar, wind, or whatever as a single solution and just work with ever increasingly integrated and ever changing multiple solutions, we could get somewhere. Sorry if I sound like Bucky)

[bovil.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the math that the supporters are using isn't great, though; in comparing gallons to gallons, they're comparing apples to oranges. A gallon of ethanol just doesn't carry the same energy as a gallon of gasoline. You will likely find that your mileage drops a little bit on ethanol.

Question is: does it drop so much that the cost-savings to you is negated?

[nolly.livejournal.com]

That's something I'll be paying attention to -- I think my actual mileage numbers will be more useful than manufacturer predictions, if I can even still find those, since it's a 6 year old vehicle and I have a fairly even mix of freeway and city driving, maybe a bit more freeway.

[koyote.livejournal.com]

Totally true, but also:

what are the relative effects in pollution (localised and global)? if pure energy is the issue, why don't we all use avgas? And- is cost savings the only major reason to choose one thing over another.

Nolly- personally, I'd look into trying to trade for one of those older deisel VW car/truck things. running 20 or 30% biodeisel would be a pretty easy thing to manage. I don't know about the SD area, but up north there are co ops that will help you mix it up.

(OTOH, petroleum deisel exhaust appears to be *exaclty* right for clogging lungs... always a trade off)

[nolly.livejournal.com]

I don't know much about diesel vehicles -- is there a reason running entirely on biodiesel wouldn't work? It's available at the same station, as is low-sulfur diesel. On the one hand, those were both over $3/gal, but I believe the diesel vehicles are generally more fuel efficient, yes? Other than vehicle availability and maintenance costs (for an older vehicle), my biggest concern is, as you mention, pollution.

[koyote.livejournal.com]

Generally it is easier to run 10-40% biodeisel, but a full conversion isn't exactly hard. The benefit to running 20% or so is that you can basically make that for free by filtering restaurant waste.

As mentioned in a previous comment, some of the older VW deisel light trucks and passenger cars were getting over 45mpg on deisel, so I think the costs work out in your favor overall. Pollution is probably not your biggest concern if you drive a deisel like a deisel- meaning no race car antics, just take it easy and pretend you drive like a hippie :)

[nolly.livejournal.com]

The thing is, I want to balance environmental sensitivity with practicality -- I'm not (at this point) committed enough to be give up the ability to drive 75 on the freeway. I need to be able to keep up with the flow of traffic, and really, 75 gets tailgaters regularly in places.

Also, I don't have the skills or the space to do a lot of auto work myself. I want ot be able to take my vehicle to my regular mechanics for an oil change/etc. every so often, and let them worry about the details.

I'm not sure what I'd be buying right now, if budget weren't an issue, but I'm sure there will be many more options in 3-5 years when I'm ready to shop seriously.

And by then, maybe I'll be more willing to give up some speed, etc. You never know.

[koyote.livejournal.com]

yeah, LOTS of people are running various biodeisel mixes on the old deisel VW rabbit pickups. Might take a bit of patience to find one, and I'd certainly consider anything that ran well and have bodywork or whatever done. Seems to be the Grail of small BD driving/hauling vehicles

[nolly.livejournal.com]

Also, I fully expect, at least in the short term, further increases in the gasoline prices. San Diego tends to be one of the most expensive locations in the US for gas -- check out http://www.sandiegogasprices.com for current numbers.

Re: ethanol use

[ybic.livejournal.com]

Welcome to the club, Menolly!

I've used ethanol since it was called 'gasohol', for two main reasons
(1) it costs less at the pump 'round these parts
(2) it's good for my pickup, due to alcohol's resistance to moisture absorption: (A) no fuel line freeze in winter (B) reduced contamination buildup in tight-tolerance fuel injectors and (C) no gas tank rust

But there's one practical caveat I've encountered in decades of ethanol use - during the worst of midwest summer heat (~100deg F) it can cause vapor lock and engine stalling. So if the temps are going to be above 90deg F, I temporarily switch back to plain old 100% dead dinosaur gasoline.

As for the "it takes more petroleum to produce..." debate, I've read credible arguments from both camps. And it's reasonable to expect that both camps have reason to be biased, otherwise they wouldn't be so (persist|vehem)ently vocal about it. About all I have to add to that discussion is that if one's main source of info on the issue is a "West Wing" TV rerun, perhaps one should research (both sides) a bit deeper, eh.

Re: ethanol use

[koyote.livejournal.com]

It's a storage system- a battery in liquid form. This is similar to the hydrogen debate or the underlying reality of petroleum. We don't (with the nuclear exception) *produce* energy, we just move it around after the sun puts it in our planetary network system. Ethanol is excellent in many ways- one of which is that it simply *is* producable from so many plant based energy storage systems.

Of course, cars that get better mileage than a 1978 accord cvcc would be a big help. Hell, if most of our cars got as good mileage, it would help.

Re: ethanol use

[nolly.livejournal.com]

My next vehicle will definitely get better mileage than my current one. However, it's not really feasible to upgrade right now, even with the savings in fuel costs.

Re: ethanol use

[koyote.livejournal.com]

Do the best you can, but-

There are management forces at work here. It's obvious that we *could* be getting an average of > 40mpg right now across the board, if the cars were made available, attractive, and marketed as being what people need.

You have a lot of use for a light pickup, and that's fine. That there aren't any *avalable* to you that get 30mpg, that's not really your fault. Oh, you can lobby and push and boycott, but you aren't in the board room making the deals with the oil money.

Re: ethanol use

[nolly.livejournal.com]

I"m hoping to supplement my truck down the road, rather than replacing it -- keep it for the times I need to haul things, but buy something much more efficient for my everyday vehicle. Whether I can do that will depend largely on registration and insurance costs of keeping the truck; by the time I'm looking to buy, I expect its trade-in value to be negligible.

Re: ethanol use

[koyote.livejournal.com]

since this isn't a right now thing, you have space to look through stuff.

People are converting older VW vans to hybrid, and also droppng in the VW 1.6 deisel (48mpg). Something like that would serve as a single vehicle that would do most anything.

Other thoughts include getting something like deisel VW Jetta and a light duty trailer hitch and using a small trailer for when you need the truck bed. Actually, you'd probbaly almost never use it, a jetta wagon has enough room to live in.

There's even a company offering a drop in alternator replacement that gives you psuedohybridsuperpower - and could increase city mileage by a lot.

For a rough estimate, from my old VW days, I'd say you could find a basic basic decet unibody VW van from somewhere between 1965 and 1975 for about a grand, and would have to put in no more than $3500 to refit it with deisel and functional restoration (I assume upholstery and paint in TJ, and maybe the conversion, though there are some shops near yu probably that can handle it)

Kind of a long term project, but doable.

Re: ethanol use

[nolly.livejournal.com]

I don't have to worry much about freezing here, but thanks for the heads-up on the vaporlock potential.

[tmdmesmer.livejournal.com]

I'd like to check out that ethanol. Is that the station at 4001 El Cajon Blvd?

[nolly.livejournal.com]

That's the one.

[ashi.livejournal.com]

Be sure to check whether your vehicle can run on e85. http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php

e85? e10.

[ybic.livejournal.com]

E10 (10% ethanol) is what's generally available in the midwest as "ethanol". I couldn't speak for other regions.

E85 (85% ethanol) will only work for vehicles specifically carberated designed for it, due to alcohol and gasonline's different evaporative and combustion properties.

Re: e85? e10.

[nolly.livejournal.com]

E85 is what's available here, and my truck can run on it -- it's a Ford Ranger with their flexible fuel system. It will take any mix of gasoline and ethanol.

[drewkitty.livejournal.com]

Ethanol fuel is a good thing to buy, even if it's not environmentally better than gasoline, because it encourage the development of multiple fuel systems nationwide -- which we'll need to change to ANY fuel other than gasoline.