(no subject)

[nolly]

Went to the Mysterious Galaxy holiday party Saturday.

13 authors came to talk about their books.

4 were male, at least one was not white. [1]

Of the 9 women, at least 2 were not white.

Eliminating the authors of straight mystery (no obvious supernatural or fantastic element), memoir (one of Shel Silverstein's best friends) and a cookbook-for-charity, those numbers become 3 men (still at least one not-white), and 6 women (still at least 2 not-white).

Tell me again how the SF/F field is dominated by white men, aas has been claimed? No, really, show me some numbers. Not one anthology among dozens, but the field as a whole. Because I look at the new releases, and I just do not see it.


[1] Sometimes people who look Caucasian to me identify as other-than-Caucasian, and that's fine, but since the subject did not come up explicitly, I can only go by my best guess. Sexuality also did not come up, and that's not something I'm likely to guess with anything like accuracy, so I won't bother trying.

Comments

[tablesaw]

Race only

[nolly.livejournal.com]

That's a very out-of-date and/or incomplete listing -- as it says, "Subject to infrequent updates" (emphasis mine), which uses an odd definition of local (I know where some, but not all, of them live, and at least one is out of state), and it's not limited to SF/F, but includes plain mystery as well. It's still about half women, and both attributes are important to my point, which has as much to do with gender as race, if not more so.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

When people say "dominated by white men", I don't think they're saying that "almost all SF/F authors are white men." I think it's quite the opposite: I think they're saying that there are a hell of a lot of not-white and/or not-men authors out there who get overlooked by a lot of white-male editors who only think about their friends who are white men when they're considering things like who goes into anthologies.

What's been happening, of course, is that smaller and newer publishers have been sidesteping those editors in order to publish these other authors.

[nolly.livejournal.com]

(To re-phrase -- "SF/F is dominated by white people" would be a much more defensible position, but is not the assertion that was made in the conversation to which I am responding.)

[nolly.livejournal.com]

This is not my experience. I see many new books by female and/or not-white authors coming from major publishers, possibly more than from white men, though I really haven't counted. I believe that the "dominated by white men" assertion was true in the past, but is not, overall, currently true. If 99% of published anthologies have as many or more not-white-male authors as white-male authors, then the 1% in which that is not true is not indicative of the field as a whole. It's possible that if you narrow your definition enough you can make the numbers support other positions, but I think that's doing a disservice to the genre.

(edited to correct a couple of typos)

[shweta-narayan.livejournal.com]

You're using one datapoint to argue against what exactly? It's a nice datapoint, sure. I like it. But your argument is creepily like "Well there's a black president, who thinks we're a racist country now, huh?"

Nobody's claiming that fantasy is male-dominated last I checked. But it's still damn hard to be female and writing SF; you get excluded from -- and not even meanly, your name just doesn't come up -- anthologies, best-of lists, awards...

And after RaceFail09, I doubt anyone's saying POC don't exist in the field. But we'll be ignored yet again the moment we stop being noisy.

Let's see how many of those women and POC you met get major awards, shall we. Let's see how many are asked to be guests of honor at major cons. Let's see how many get publicized.

[nolly.livejournal.com]

My best recollection of the previous conversation -- which was some time ago -- was that SF and F were combined in the assertion.

Since several of the authors there were discussing first books, it will probably take a while for the major awards and especially GoH invites to come. But women have certainly won major awards for SF in the past, and will in the future, too.

As I said above, "SF/F is dominated by white people" is a defensible position, and is not what I take issue with. I take issue with the assertion that it's dominated by men.

Oh, and the last con I went to? GoHs were Tananarive Due and Steve Barnes. Those responsible for inviting them were not part of the various discussions in the past year, and the invitations would have gone out before that storm broke, anyway. The next non-anime con I plan to attend has C.J. Cherryh as GoH. (I'm skipping the anime con because it's just a whole different structure and demographic.)

[shweta-narayan.livejournal.com]

But women have certainly won major awards for SF in the past, and will in the future, too.

Sure.
So far, not as many as men. And the Hugo lists are always hugely male-dominated even now.

Getting a first book out does not a career guarantee. What you're saying sounds optimistic to the point of missing the problem to me. We still have a situation where someone like Paul di Fillipo can come into a discussion of a book of "Mindblowing SF" having no women in it, not even Le Guin and Butler, and blithely claim it's cause people like him write better and women don't do anything mindblowing, because we are lettuce among the printer paper.

[nolly.livejournal.com]

My point, in part, is that Paul DiFilippo is one idiot whose words should not be taken as representing the opinions of anyone else, much less the field as a whole.

[shweta-narayan.livejournal.com]

Paul di Filippo is one idiot who keeps showing up in every damn SF anthology I look at. While, for example, Tempest and Vandana Singh do not.

So what am I to make of that?

[nolly.livejournal.com]

That Di Filippo has a career going back to the 1970s (http://www.pauldifilippo.com/short_stories.php), and the other two, so far as I can tell, weren't even born when he started being published, much less writing?

Also, that you look at different anthologies than I do. I think I have 5 anthologies he's got stories in, going all the way back to Mirrorshades; LibrarytThing says I have 223 total anthologies, so thats an awful lot he isn't in. I've read some Di Filippo. Didn't like it. I've also read some of Bradford's work. Didn't like it much, either, though I did like it better than the Di Filippo I've read. Haven't encountered Vandana Singh, so far as I recall.

[shweta-narayan.livejournal.com]

I've been seeing Paul di Filippo in almost every antho I picked up this year. I have no idea why; my own reaction to his writing is distinctly meh.

Haven't encountered Vandana Singh, so far as I recall.

Non-American. I think if you look at the WorldSF blog, you'll see a lot of people writing who you don't encounter, because. It's still a predominantly white (And US/UK) field.

On the gender count, speaking only of SF (since I agree it's not true of fantasy; and I have told you 3 times so it's true :D) I will believe you when I see as many mediocre stories by women in anthologies as I do by men.

[tablesaw]

Thanks for the clarification.

When you say "dominate" are you thinking in terms of numbers or power/influence? I think that in terms of race, it's clearly both, but at this point men "dominate" SF/F more interms of having a distinct power advantage more than having a distinct numerical advantage (though there is a numerical advantage too). And although that is and has been changing, that doesn't mean that it's yet been changed.

Here's a list of statistics regarding gender, presented in an annoyingly haphazard manner. Most recent data is from 2007, I think, and comparison of the Locus numbers generally indicates a general shift of from 30% to 40%. (Though the "Big 4" story mags have remained steady.)

Power is more complex than presence, because it starts to get into areas about subgenres that have more influence and stuff like that. A survey would be interesting, but I don't know that one's actually been done. But if you were to reckon things differently, and to consider the individuals who you feel "dominate" the field, would white men be the majority? The vast majority? The plurality? And would you imagine your individuals would align with the list of others?

[tablesaw]

That Di Filippo has a career going back to the 1970s, and the other two, so far as I can tell, weren't even born when he started being published, much less writing?

Which is part of the point. In publishing, power has inertia, and so while present trends of newcomers (all of the non-white authors at the party were promoting first novels) may indicate equity in the future, that's not the same as equity at the present.

[nolly.livejournal.com]

Hard to find an author list there, unfortunately, and I don't have time right now to go digging, though I did mark one post, which appeared to have lots of links to stories, to read later, though it may be a good while later.

It is, unfortunately, rather hard to compare mediocre story counts, since what one person considers mediocre, another loves.

[nolly.livejournal.com]

I find that numbers and power are inextricably linked. I don't think the distinction was made previously, and the conversation elsewhere ended with no conclusion when my objection to having my experience dismissed with "You're wrong because I say so" was taken as a flounce, and we all disengaged. I will look at the links you provided later; it's time to exit the office, so I'm going to hit save and the road in that order.

[shweta-narayan.livejournal.com]

It is, unfortunately, rather hard to compare mediocre story counts, since what one person considers mediocre, another loves.

Granted; but it's really the only measure that can possibly mean we've reached parity.

You've heard of Paul di Filippo. Have you heard of Nisi Shawl, who is frickin' amazing? When one can have heard of him and not her, that's where I see a continued, extant problem.

Now, in the hard numbers, there are plenty of nasty gender-differences in where the powers in SF stand. (the big magazines, the big publishers, the big awards...) It's not enough to say "There are more women in SF now". You need to be able to show that they are getting equivalent sales to big houses, advances, promotion, readership, visibility, awards...

And if you're right, we'll see that in a few years.
But I don't think we're nearly there yet.

[shweta-narayan.livejournal.com]

This is pretty much what I've been trying to say, only way better :)

[nolly.livejournal.com]

I've heard of Di Filippo mainly because, after reading and loving The Difference Engine, I sought out his Steampunk Trilogy. Alas, I found it sadly disappointing.

As it happens, I have heard of Nisi Shawl, and read a couple of her short stories -- I have, and have read, Mojo: Conjure Stories. (I also have Dark Matter: Reading the Bones on my to-read shelves, but haven't gotten to it yet.) Also, she had a story on PodCastle, which I've been listening to from the start. Maybe some other podcasted works, too? Not sure, but the name seems more familiar than just those would suggest. and I get a lot of short fiction that way.

[nolly.livejournal.com]

Compare a 50-something female author to Di Filippo, and you'd have a point. Comparing authors young enough to be his children to him, and expecting similar sales, is just silly -- and I would say that regardless of the genders or cultures of any of the parties involved.

[shweta-narayan.livejournal.com]

She also co-won the Tiptree award this year, dunno if that's something you follow.

But in this, you're mind-bogglingly rare.

[nolly.livejournal.com]

I sort-of follow the Tiptree; I go through cycles where it's the sort of fiction I'm most interested in. Some of them I like, some of them simply don't work for me, though other people love them. (For instance, judging by our conversations last 4th St., Cat Valente and I simply approach the world too differently for me to ever love her books -- I had read the one that won the Tiptree, but it didn't do much for me, and after talking with her, I understand why.) I've read about 9.5 of the winners (I'm pretty sure I didn't finish "Travels with the Snow Queen", anyway), and more from the short and long lists.

[nolly.livejournal.com]

(because I neglected to address this earlier)

I'm only giving one data point here, but it's consistent with the rest of my experience -- for instance, when I come home from the bookstore, I always, or nearly always, have more books by female authors than male, though I'm not selecting for that, at least consciously. I'm seeing plenty of female and/or not-white GoHs, and more who are invited, but for whatever reason are unable to attend. To be fair, though, I've been reading more fantasy and genre-blending work than traditional "pure" SF lately; I just haven't seen a lot that catches my interest in the strictly-SF subgenre lately. I'm open to recommendations, with the caveat that my to-read shelves are overflowing, so if I don't already have it, it may be a while.

[nolly.livejournal.com]

The Broad Universe stats are interesting; I'd like to see it updated a bit more -- some sections go to 2007. but others stop at 1999 or 2000. I'd really like to see how the Locus numbers change under the new leadership, but that'll take a while yet. The Strange Horizons article is perfectly sensible; editors can't publish what isn't submitted, and the publication numbers are in line with the submission numbers, according to her data.

[shweta-narayan.livejournal.com]

Karen Joy Fowler's SF short stories are pretty damn cool, but of late? Nisi's been the first person to really interest me with real-true-not-genrebendy-SF in a while. Jim Kelly for the more slipstream-SF stuff, though.

I wish my experience matched your most closely (though my tastes certainly run towards more female authors than male), but since it mostly doesn't, and neither of us have numbers that would be anything like conclusive, I think we have to leave it there :)

[nolly.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I've been following Jim Kelly's podcast, too; not that he's updated lately. I'm pretty sure I've read some Fowler, and I know there's some on the to-read shelf, but I think what I have is more genre-blurry than pure-SF.

[charlie-ego.livejournal.com]

Well, first, I salute your courage in opening this up to a discussion where you knew some heated exchanges were going to happen :)

...I think I agree with you, with caveats. When I look at the list of books I have lying around (library, new acquisitions, etc.) I see that, of recently-published SF/F books I think are really good, no skew towards white males (if anything, a skew away from white males -- I think actually that it may be a handicap in writing interestingly about the Other).

However, the list of recently-published SF books we have around that I think are mediocre but entertaining, which I suspect correlates heavily with best-selling/famous/heavily-anthologized, is heavily skewed towards white males.

I think there are reasons for this that are not restricted solely to the field of publishing, but I am too lazy to start a rant about it now (and I have to go actually do work and stuff).

[nolly.livejournal.com]

I think my "mediocre-but-entertaining" for the past couple of years has been almost entirely paranormal chick lit. It's fun -- and also pretty much universally by women. :)