(no subject)

[nolly]

Went to the Mysterious Galaxy holiday party Saturday.

13 authors came to talk about their books.

4 were male, at least one was not white. [1]

Of the 9 women, at least 2 were not white.

Eliminating the authors of straight mystery (no obvious supernatural or fantastic element), memoir (one of Shel Silverstein's best friends) and a cookbook-for-charity, those numbers become 3 men (still at least one not-white), and 6 women (still at least 2 not-white).

Tell me again how the SF/F field is dominated by white men, aas has been claimed? No, really, show me some numbers. Not one anthology among dozens, but the field as a whole. Because I look at the new releases, and I just do not see it.


[1] Sometimes people who look Caucasian to me identify as other-than-Caucasian, and that's fine, but since the subject did not come up explicitly, I can only go by my best guess. Sexuality also did not come up, and that's not something I'm likely to guess with anything like accuracy, so I won't bother trying.

Comments

[nolly.livejournal.com]

My best recollection of the previous conversation -- which was some time ago -- was that SF and F were combined in the assertion.

Since several of the authors there were discussing first books, it will probably take a while for the major awards and especially GoH invites to come. But women have certainly won major awards for SF in the past, and will in the future, too.

As I said above, "SF/F is dominated by white people" is a defensible position, and is not what I take issue with. I take issue with the assertion that it's dominated by men.

Oh, and the last con I went to? GoHs were Tananarive Due and Steve Barnes. Those responsible for inviting them were not part of the various discussions in the past year, and the invitations would have gone out before that storm broke, anyway. The next non-anime con I plan to attend has C.J. Cherryh as GoH. (I'm skipping the anime con because it's just a whole different structure and demographic.)

[shweta-narayan.livejournal.com]

But women have certainly won major awards for SF in the past, and will in the future, too.

Sure.
So far, not as many as men. And the Hugo lists are always hugely male-dominated even now.

Getting a first book out does not a career guarantee. What you're saying sounds optimistic to the point of missing the problem to me. We still have a situation where someone like Paul di Fillipo can come into a discussion of a book of "Mindblowing SF" having no women in it, not even Le Guin and Butler, and blithely claim it's cause people like him write better and women don't do anything mindblowing, because we are lettuce among the printer paper.

[nolly.livejournal.com]

My point, in part, is that Paul DiFilippo is one idiot whose words should not be taken as representing the opinions of anyone else, much less the field as a whole.

[shweta-narayan.livejournal.com]

Paul di Filippo is one idiot who keeps showing up in every damn SF anthology I look at. While, for example, Tempest and Vandana Singh do not.

So what am I to make of that?

[nolly.livejournal.com]

That Di Filippo has a career going back to the 1970s (http://www.pauldifilippo.com/short_stories.php), and the other two, so far as I can tell, weren't even born when he started being published, much less writing?

Also, that you look at different anthologies than I do. I think I have 5 anthologies he's got stories in, going all the way back to Mirrorshades; LibrarytThing says I have 223 total anthologies, so thats an awful lot he isn't in. I've read some Di Filippo. Didn't like it. I've also read some of Bradford's work. Didn't like it much, either, though I did like it better than the Di Filippo I've read. Haven't encountered Vandana Singh, so far as I recall.

[shweta-narayan.livejournal.com]

I've been seeing Paul di Filippo in almost every antho I picked up this year. I have no idea why; my own reaction to his writing is distinctly meh.

Haven't encountered Vandana Singh, so far as I recall.

Non-American. I think if you look at the WorldSF blog, you'll see a lot of people writing who you don't encounter, because. It's still a predominantly white (And US/UK) field.

On the gender count, speaking only of SF (since I agree it's not true of fantasy; and I have told you 3 times so it's true :D) I will believe you when I see as many mediocre stories by women in anthologies as I do by men.

[nolly.livejournal.com]

Hard to find an author list there, unfortunately, and I don't have time right now to go digging, though I did mark one post, which appeared to have lots of links to stories, to read later, though it may be a good while later.

It is, unfortunately, rather hard to compare mediocre story counts, since what one person considers mediocre, another loves.

[shweta-narayan.livejournal.com]

It is, unfortunately, rather hard to compare mediocre story counts, since what one person considers mediocre, another loves.

Granted; but it's really the only measure that can possibly mean we've reached parity.

You've heard of Paul di Filippo. Have you heard of Nisi Shawl, who is frickin' amazing? When one can have heard of him and not her, that's where I see a continued, extant problem.

Now, in the hard numbers, there are plenty of nasty gender-differences in where the powers in SF stand. (the big magazines, the big publishers, the big awards...) It's not enough to say "There are more women in SF now". You need to be able to show that they are getting equivalent sales to big houses, advances, promotion, readership, visibility, awards...

And if you're right, we'll see that in a few years.
But I don't think we're nearly there yet.

[nolly.livejournal.com]

I've heard of Di Filippo mainly because, after reading and loving The Difference Engine, I sought out his Steampunk Trilogy. Alas, I found it sadly disappointing.

As it happens, I have heard of Nisi Shawl, and read a couple of her short stories -- I have, and have read, Mojo: Conjure Stories. (I also have Dark Matter: Reading the Bones on my to-read shelves, but haven't gotten to it yet.) Also, she had a story on PodCastle, which I've been listening to from the start. Maybe some other podcasted works, too? Not sure, but the name seems more familiar than just those would suggest. and I get a lot of short fiction that way.

[shweta-narayan.livejournal.com]

She also co-won the Tiptree award this year, dunno if that's something you follow.

But in this, you're mind-bogglingly rare.

[nolly.livejournal.com]

I sort-of follow the Tiptree; I go through cycles where it's the sort of fiction I'm most interested in. Some of them I like, some of them simply don't work for me, though other people love them. (For instance, judging by our conversations last 4th St., Cat Valente and I simply approach the world too differently for me to ever love her books -- I had read the one that won the Tiptree, but it didn't do much for me, and after talking with her, I understand why.) I've read about 9.5 of the winners (I'm pretty sure I didn't finish "Travels with the Snow Queen", anyway), and more from the short and long lists.

[tablesaw]

That Di Filippo has a career going back to the 1970s, and the other two, so far as I can tell, weren't even born when he started being published, much less writing?

Which is part of the point. In publishing, power has inertia, and so while present trends of newcomers (all of the non-white authors at the party were promoting first novels) may indicate equity in the future, that's not the same as equity at the present.

[shweta-narayan.livejournal.com]

This is pretty much what I've been trying to say, only way better :)

[nolly.livejournal.com]

Compare a 50-something female author to Di Filippo, and you'd have a point. Comparing authors young enough to be his children to him, and expecting similar sales, is just silly -- and I would say that regardless of the genders or cultures of any of the parties involved.